User talk:Clindberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Tennessee

Welcome to the Commons, Clindberg!

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Unidentified ship

Hi Carl, Here is a picture of HMS Edgar in 1860, in the Firth of Forth, with an unidentified ship, on the right hand side of the photo. (HMS Royal Albert (ship, 1854), and HMS Trafalgar (1841) were in the vicinity at the time).

The dates are wrong for HMS Warrior (1860), even though she looks similar from a distance. Any thoughts? Broichmore (talk) 15:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

If it's too early for the Warrior, it would have to be one of the wooden screw frigates or sloops. The makeup of the Channel fleet in the Firth of Forth is listed here, if you scroll down to the June 1860 entries. With a quick search I cannot figure which one it is, as need to find more pictures of those particular ships I think. Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Tennessee State Seal complaint

Hi, Clindberg, I received a complaint from the State of Tennessee Graphic Design Department, saying the Wikipedia image of the seal File:Seal of Tennessee.svg is not correct; they asked if it could be changed, and sent an image of the seal, as they said it should be. A quote: “The official Seal of Tennessee is not multi-color, It is solid black or gold. Will you replace “The Great Seal of Tennessee” with the attached image?” The image they sent is the same one that appears in B&W in the body of the article. I can see for myself some stylized differences in the colored seal vs. the original. I am no expert here, and I wonder of you would take a look. I believe the uploader got the image from a U.S Government site (the CDC), with the rationale that it is "from an official government source". Should the article have a disclaimer in the text about the colorized version not being official? Thanks, Eagledj (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Eagledj: I was the one who uploaded that, years ago. There are two aspects of this -- the copyright, and I guess the "correct" depiction and arguments of that.

As for the copyright, per Commons:Coats of arms, an actual drawing of the written design description has its own copyright -- each drawing is a different representation of the same idea. So, each artist can own the copyright to their own drawing of the seal (or if they copied parts from other drawings, they can be derivative works, etc.). State governments do have their own drawings, but typically claim copyright on their works, so we would need a license sent via COM:VRT for any drawing done by state government artists -- or find a rationale where it entered the public domain. If the drawing dates from 1987 and copies were distributed without a copyright notice, which may be hard to prove, it could be {{PD-US-1978-89}}. If the drawing is actually a part of a state law or regulation, there could be an argument for {{PD-EdictGov}} on it. The one I uploaded, was apparently drawn by U.S. State Department artists, thus is {{PD-USGov}} (since those artists were federal government employees). There were embassy pages which used bitmaps generated from them (which are still there -- see https://usa.usembassy.de/tennessee.htm and https://2009-2017.state.gov/r/pa/map/221093.htm ), but the CDC used vector versions, so I extracted those, and uploaded them for a number of states. There would be no problem in making a version of that with the color removed.

As for color, that can get argumentative :-) It is a written description, which allows a wide range of artistic freedom. In heraldry, seals and coats of arms can be drawn in color (and are intended to be). There are no colors specified in the description -- so in heraldic tradition, the color would normally be assumed as "proper" (see Tincture (heraldry)), which means "colors as seen in nature". For physical seals, which of course create an impression in wax or paper and thus do not print color, there is a system of lines or dots which indicate the correct color if later drawn that way (see Hatching (heraldry)). For example, in File:1885_US_Great_Seal_die.jpg, you can see the horizontal lines on the top of the shield (which indicate Azure, or blue) and vertical lines on some of the vertical stripes below that (which indicate Gules, or red), as those colors match the flag. (That die actually has a heraldic error; the rays around the stars at the top are supposed to be the tincture Or, or gold, which is represented by dots -- that error was fixed on the later die seen at File:1904_US_Great_Seal_die.jpg). Back to the Tennessee seal, if no colors are specified (and their drawings have no hatching indicators anywhere), most people would then feel free to invent colors when they make drawings -- if the drawing matches the definition, it's still a valid representation. I imagine this is what the State Department artists did. Someone else modified the colors a little after I uploaded it, but whatever. File:Tennessee state coat of arms (illustrated, 1876).jpg is an old illustration of the Tennessee coats of arms in color.

From what I can see of the depictions on their government websites, most today do use monochrome (though https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/correction/documents/StatisticalAbstract2021.pdf has a mostly-monochrome version with some custom background colors). So, I could see putting the most commonly seen version on the Wikipedia page. The best way is probably to simply make a black and white version of the SVG we have, which has no copyright issues, and switch to that. Carl Lindberg (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time for such an erudite and thorough answer. I learned a lot. I'm tempted to try {{PD-EdictGov}}, but for now, I'll report back to the Tennessee delegation and say keep it the way it is, except with a disclaimer in the text of the article saying that state guidelines specify no coloration of the seal in official use. Best, Eagledj (talk) 23:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Manos The Hands of Fate 1966.ogv

Hello, your input in this community discussion would be welcome. Thanks, — Racconish ^💬 07:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Mickey au Camp de Gurs

Hi Carl, There is an interesting copyright case with these files. The author died in 1942, and it seems they were first published only in 2014. They are in public domain in France, but what's the copyright status in USA? Thanks for your help, Yann (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@Yann: Seems like they would be under the 25-year publication right in France, wouldn't they? Or did the author get the 30-year extension for "died for France" (making it 80pma and thus published within that term)? Any work created before 1978 but published 2003 or later has a term of 70pma for works with a known author, which were not a work for hire. If that is the case, the U.S. copyright expired in 2013. If they were a work for hire (seems unlikely if they were unpublished), then U.S. copyright would be 120 years from creation. In reading about it, clearly not a work for hire. The date it was "published" by U.S. standards could be difficult -- the early provenance seems a bit of a mystery. I doubt the author or their heirs have any U.S. copyright on it left. Only real question would be the derivative work status by using Mickey Mouse, which seems only a small part. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed answer, as always. Will the Mickey copyright expire on January 1st, 2024? Yann (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Not really. Only the portions of the character which exist in the Steamboat Willie movie and anything else that year. Additions to the character (such as appearance changes) introduced in later movies remain copyrighted until those movies expire. With that many movies which can provide changes, the character copyright is a layer of derivative works really, and they will expire one layer at a time. Not all movies necessarily added to the character, but appearance stuff, and backstory etc. all could. Carl Lindberg (talk) 22:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Does the fact that it was created (and probably published) without Disney approval change anything? Yann (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Not really. Copyright violations are generally always things done without permission. If Disney has OKed publishing the work, then it may be fine. Given the situation it was from, it may well be fair use and not strictly illegal in the US, and kind of a rough thing to delete over if it's otherwise OK. Is there a party which is claiming copyright? Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Not at this time. Yann (talk) 23:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)